The Palestinian Refugees Deserve Better, Much Better.

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By Ghassan Karam

An elderly Palestinian carries a symbolic key during a sit-in marking the 62nd anniversary of the "Nakba," Arabic for catastrophe in front of the United Nations office in Beirut

It is that time of the year when the Arab world rediscovers the Palestinian people and their just cause. Alas the discovery does not last for more than a few hours during which politicians make their speeches and compete with each other in an effort to establish their political concern and awareness. We have been going through this ritual for over 60 years and there isn’t anything that anyone can show for these efforts. One cannot help but feel sorry for the Palestinian people since with such friends who needs any enemies.

The Lebanese , in general,have been possibly the worst opportunists and exploiters on these occasions. I have no doubt that there are some very sincere Lebanese who truly believe that the Palestinian people have been unjustly treated and must be supported in their struggle for an honorable settlement. But I am so very disgusted when I hear the disingenuous sentiments expressed in support of the Palestinian struggle by those who have consistently exploited them and abused them. The crocodile tears shed on this occasion are a convenient cover to argue against the Palestinians through a shrewdly constructed rationale that argues that the Palestinians should be abused and discriminated against; they should be deprived of many of their human rights and educational opportunities in order to preserve their right of return. We discriminate against them because of our love, concern and support for them. This strange logic is similar although it predates the Vietnam policy of “We had to destroy the village in order to save it”.

Does our duplicity know any bounds? Would we want to be treated like we treat the Palestinians? After all isn’t that the best guide for action: “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”? Let us play a mind game if you will: Let us imagine that a group of people invaded Lebanon and that half the population decided to flee the war for a variety of reasons. They sought refuge in a number of neighbouring countries till the hostilities end. To their surprise when the war was over they were not permitted to go back. Would we then want these refugees to spend the next 63 years living in the hastily erected temporary refugee camps that were set upon their arrival or would we expect their host countries to treat them like they treat any other immigrant? Wouldn’t we expect and even insist that the hosts make every effort to alleviate their suffering and to integrate them into their respective societies and economies? Shouldn’t they be allowed to own property like all other inhabitants and enjoy the same privileges and protections of the law of the land? And wouldn’t we insist that if they choose then they should become citizens of their adopted countries of residence so that they will be able to exercise their right to vote and thus participate fully in shaping the society in which they are an integral member?

I am confident that our answers to each and every one of the above hypothetical question is in the affirmative. Not only that but we would expect all people anywhere in the world to be treated that way whether they are Iraqi refugees, Vietnamese refugees, Somali refugees or Armenian refugees, just to name a few groups. We will never sanction that we be treated differently than the population where we sought refuge and most importantly we will not accept the argument that we need to be discriminated against for our own good, as if love of country and adherence to moral values and principals are best promoted through mistreatments and opprobrium.

Palestinians carry flags and banners during a sit-in marking the 62nd anniversary of the "Nakba," Arabic for catastrophe, in front of the United Nations in Beirut

And finally let us repeat one more time what many studies have made abundantly clear: The right of return will not be diminished or watered down in any way form or fashion if the mistreatment and abuse of the Palestinians comes to an end either through acquiring the citizenship rights of where they live or the right to be permanent legal residents with all the rights enjoyed by all other residents.

Lebanon and the Lebanese must right what has been wrong for 63 years. The shameful treatment of the Palestinian refugees is a blot on our national character and history, a blot that we have the moral duty and the obligation to ameliorate by admitting our past errors and by offering the Palestinian refugees in Lebanon full equality under the law in each and every sphere. We also need to offer citizenship to those that want it. Nothing else will do.

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Comments

135 responses to “The Palestinian Refugees Deserve Better, Much Better.”

  1. I’m sorry to disappoint, but the return of Palestinians into what is now Israel will not happen. Palestinians were royally screwed by Arab governments around the Middle East when those expelled hundreds of thousands of Jews from their countries and forces them into Israel. Even if all the ‘European Jews’ would ‘go home’, some 3 million people have only one home now – Israel.

    1. Ghassan Karam Avatar
      Ghassan Karam

      Jonathan,
                    I am afraid that you have misunderstood the whole argument of this column. No where did I argue that the Palestinians should all go back, instead I chose carefully the phrase honourable settltement  and in other places made references to the right of return, which as you well know is a right that can be settled in more than one way.

      1. aparatchik Avatar
        aparatchik

        Are you saying the Palestinian Arabs deserve an “honorable settlement” vis a vis Israel? The Arab militias chose to attack the Jewish community. They gambled and lost. It may be argued that the Palestinian Arab civilians were not to blame for the invasion of the other Arab armies and the subsequent extension of the war but in that case their claim is with those governments. German refugees from Poland, Czechoslovakia after WWII have no rights vis a vis those countries and the responsibility lay quite rightly with Germany as the belligerent to settle them within the new German borders. The arab regimes gained a lot of land (4x size of Israel) and other assets from their Jewish refugees and – if they lack the honour to return them to their rightful owners – should at least use these resources for the benefit of the Palestinian refugees and their descendants, people they have so cruelly manipulated for so many years. 

        1. Ghassan Karam Avatar
          Ghassan Karam

          apartchik,
                        It is sad that the only two sounding Israeli commentators have used this post that is attempting to deal with a purely domestic issue to make all sorts of claims that are not the subject of this post. Nonetheless the issue of Jews that were driven out of the Arab countried is a legitimate one and probably can be used to counter some of the claims by Palestinians. I am lad that you think that both sides are entitled to file counter claims.

  2. I’m sorry to disappoint, but the return of Palestinians into what is now Israel will not happen. Palestinians were royally screwed by Arab governments around the Middle East when those expelled hundreds of thousands of Jews from their countries and forces them into Israel. Even if all the ‘European Jews’ would ‘go home’, some 3 million people have only one home now – Israel.

  3. I’m sorry to disappoint, but the return of Palestinians into what is now Israel will not happen. Palestinians were royally screwed by Arab governments around the Middle East when those expelled hundreds of thousands of Jews from their countries and forces them into Israel. Even if all the ‘European Jews’ would ‘go home’, some 3 million people have only one home now – Israel.

    1. Jonathan,
                    I am afraid that you have misunderstood the whole argument of this column. No where did I argue that the Palestinians should all go back, instead I chose carefully the phrase honourable settltement  and in other places made references to the right of return, which as you well know is a right that can be settled in more than one way.

      1. aparatchik Avatar
        aparatchik

        Are you saying the Palestinian Arabs deserve an “honorable settlement” vis a vis Israel? The Arab militias chose to attack the Jewish community. They gambled and lost. It may be argued that the Palestinian Arab civilians were not to blame for the invasion of the other Arab armies and the subsequent extension of the war but in that case their claim is with those governments. German refugees from Poland, Czechoslovakia after WWII have no rights vis a vis those countries and the responsibility lay quite rightly with Germany as the belligerent to settle them within the new German borders. The arab regimes gained a lot of land (4x size of Israel) and other assets from their Jewish refugees and – if they lack the honour to return them to their rightful owners – should at least use these resources for the benefit of the Palestinian refugees and their descendants, people they have so cruelly manipulated for so many years. 

        1. apartchik,
                        It is sad that the only two sounding Israeli commentators have used this post that is attempting to deal with a purely domestic issue to make all sorts of claims that are not the subject of this post. Nonetheless the issue of Jews that were driven out of the Arab countried is a legitimate one and probably can be used to counter some of the claims by Palestinians. I am lad that you think that both sides are entitled to file counter claims.

  4. 5thDrawer Avatar
    5thDrawer

    Normally, one would expect that if one is born in a country one is a citizen of that country. Yes. And then also should feel a part of it.

    1. Ghassan Karam Avatar
      Ghassan Karam

      5thDrawer,
                    Believe it or not most countries do not offer citizenship by birth only. But in this case it goes well beyond the type of citizenship law that the country has. Usually if one is not offered citizenship right by one stae then another state will be in a position to offer its citizenship. Forexample, newly born to a Lebanese mother do not get Lebanese citizenship automatically since they can get the citizenship of their father. In the case of the Palestinian refugees they are officially classified as stateless and so they do not have any official state that can offer them either its protection or travel documents. The UN has held two major conferences to remedy this situation one in 1954 and one in 1961 that essentially asks countries to offer their citizenship to the stateless who are born on their territories. Not many states have ratified these conventions but the &UNCHR is planning a drive to increase the number of countries. What is shameful is that the only Arab states that have signed either one or both conventions is limited to three: Algeria only 1954 and Libya and Tunis both 1954 and 1961.

      1. 5thDrawer Avatar
        5thDrawer

        Let’s hear it for the Libyans … 🙂

  5.  Avatar
    Anonymous

    Normally, one would expect that if one is born in a country one is a citizen of that country. Yes. And then also should feel a part of it.

    1. 5thDrawer,
                    Believe it or not most countries do not offer citizenship by birth only. But in this case it goes well beyond the type of citizenship law that the country has. Usually if one is not offered citizenship right by one stae then another state will be in a position to offer its citizenship. Forexample, newly born to a Lebanese mother do not get Lebanese citizenship automatically since they can get the citizenship of their father. In the case of the Palestinian refugees they are officially classified as stateless and so they do not have any official state that can offer them either its protection or travel documents. The UN has held two major conferences to remedy this situation one in 1954 and one in 1961 that essentially asks countries to offer their citizenship to the stateless who are born on their territories. Not many states have ratified these conventions but the &UNCHR is planning a drive to increase the number of countries. What is shameful is that the only Arab states that have signed either one or both conventions is limited to three: Algeria only 1954 and Libya and Tunis both 1954 and 1961.

      1.  Avatar
        Anonymous

        Let’s hear it for the Libyans … 🙂

  6. 316909 Avatar

    Lebanon has suffered the most for Palestine and its people. We never had a war or civil strife in Lebanon until they showed up. We gave them all our trust and allowed them to train and fight Israel from Lebanon when the rest of the Arabs turned away. We took in 500,000 people and gave them whatever they needed until they turned those guns on us and decided that the road to Palestine starts in Juni (basically they decided they would just take lebanon and make it a Palestinian nation). Now they are being treated in a way where they can be controlled because they can not be trusted. Look at what they did in Naher Al Barid. If you allow 500,000 of them to roam around freely its only a matter of time before they all join this or that armed group and then take it over and start a new war. Im sorry I have to say this but its the truth. Once they have a state they can go back and live in it. I dont think its Israels business if a Palestinian state allows its refuges to return as long as they live in the boundaries of this new state and not in Israel.

    1. Ghassan Karam Avatar
      Ghassan Karam

      316909
                I am not going to disagree with you that many problems in Lebanon involved Palestinian refugees. That is a fact but that also is besides the point. Whether it is 1% of the Palestinian refugees that have acted to de stablize Lebanon or whethr it was a majority is not the issue. Once they are integrated then those that break the law will be held accountable for their actions. Why should those that have been brought up in wretched poverty and sub human conditions develop a feeling of allegiance to the place that mistreats them?

      1. 316909 Avatar

        @Ghassan Karam. They had about 100,000 armed men in Lebanon and took over the country. I think we all hear stories of what they did to the people and how they treated civilians. Before they can be integrated they have to want to be Lebanese or at least live under our rules. At the moment the Lebanese police and Army are not even allowed into the camps under an agreement with the Arab League. The camps are filled with armed groups and illegal activity. Before you allow them to roam around the country you have to at least go into every single one of the camps and clear it of weapons (witch they would not accept to begin with). If you ever go to Sayda and just sit around near ain al hilwi camp all you hear is gun fire most of the time. the news had stopped reporting it because they do it all the time its not even news any more. Another thing is we have no law in Lebanon. Our laws are enforced on the weak and the poor while armed gangs and the elite class get away with anything. Imagine opeing the camps and allowing these armed groups to have the freedom of running around doing what they want. The people in the camps are also mostly uneducated and have one of two options to live. 1. open some sort of small business like a dikani or smoke shop or 2. join one of the many armed groups. Before you can allow them to live in Lebanon you have to 1. clear the camps, Invest in schools and colleges and start allowing the educated to slowly move out of the camps into Lebanon and live as normal Lebanese would. You also have to think about the balance in Lebanon. 500,000 more Sunni in Lebanon would scare the hell out of HA and most Christians so basically its never going to happen and if they try it would lead to another civil war in my opinion. At the moment we have them under control to a certain extent and nothing can be done unless the camps are cleared. Lebanon is not responsible for them to begin with. The camps are considered to be Palestine until the issue is resolved with Israel and they leave. They wanted to be Isolated and they got what they wanted. They wanted to govern the camps and they got it. Another point is that Since they are allowed to leave the camps if they have work or want to find work (or for school & College but they cant afford that) why dont they replace the Syrians as labor and construction workers. I develop property in Lebanon and I have never hired a Palestinian because no one has ever even tried to get a job. Lebanon has a need for Labor and we import it from all over the world while 500,000 Palestinians are too proud to work in construction or as maids, waiters and things like that. They have pride and no money to eat. Since the revolt in Syria and also Since 2005 but more now since the revolt we have a shortage in construction workers in Lebanon and salaries have tripled and I still dont see any Palestinians trying to get work. If 200,000 of them went out and worked as construction workers for an average $600 a month they would slowly be able to rebuild the lives they lost. If another 50,000 of them applied for work as maids and earn $200 a month you would have 130,000,000 USD going into the camps monthly witch would create a mini economy in the camps since these people will spend the money they make. Im saying we have about 1 million maids in lebanon from all over asia and we have over 1 million labor employees (construction, sukline, janitors ) mainly from Syria and we have 500,000 Palestinians in Lebanon who have no money and dont even try to get these jobs. Most would rather join an armed group than work at burger king sweeping floors because a gun is like another dick in Lebanon and gets more respect than a janitor would.

        1. Ghassan Karam Avatar
          Ghassan Karam

          316909
                     You are still trying to find a rational for keeping the status quo. What I am suggesting is a new approach, a different policy . Had Lebanon treated the Palestinian refugees differently then there would have been no camps to complain about.  BTW, there is a popular saying: “You are entitled to your own opinion but not to your own facts”:-) Unfortunately practically all the figures that you have used are wrong and by a large margin.
                   Palestinian in the camps are not 500,000 but only 225,000. The other 200,000 already live outside the camps.
                   Lebanon has a large number of house maids from many Asian and African countries but not a million. It is around 150,000.
                 

        2. Ghassan Karam Avatar
          Ghassan Karam

          316909
                     You are still trying to find a rational for keeping the status quo. What I am suggesting is a new approach, a different policy . Had Lebanon treated the Palestinian refugees differently then there would have been no camps to complain about.  BTW, there is a popular saying: “You are entitled to your own opinion but not to your own facts”:-) Unfortunately practically all the figures that you have used are wrong and by a large margin.
                   Palestinian in the camps are not 500,000 but only 225,000. The other 200,000 already live outside the camps.
                   Lebanon has a large number of house maids from many Asian and African countries but not a million. It is around 150,000.
                 

        3. 316909 Avatar

          Mr.Karam, Why do the u.n say 400,000 witch mainly live in or around the camps? and why do they say that another 100,000 live out of the camps as Lebanese citizens already? About the maids I could be wrong because I didnt look into it its a number I hear all the time. I know we have over 1 million labor from syria mainly. either way even if we have 50,000 refugees in the camps why are they not working and waiting around to become the ceo of ibm? My point was we have a need for labor and they are already in the country and have not tried to fill that gap even though they have no money to eat and wait around for handouts from an ngo or some un organization. I dont hate Palestinians at all. My wife is originally from Palestine so my kids are half Palestinian (her father went to the uae in 1948 at the age of 17 and became a citizen in the late 80s but he is still originally from Palestine) im just stating a fact on the ground. and if you add 225,000 + 200,000 you get 425,000 those are the numbers you put about the amount of refugees in Lebanon. It would make no difference at all and im not trying to keep things the way they are but you cant change it now without taking steps like clearing the camps from weapons and investing in schools. The way Lebanon treated them is based on what they wanted. they wanted to govern the camps, they dont want lebanese citizenship and they dont want to work either. Our country was torn apart because of these people after we trusted them and the trust has been lost. My question has not been answered and its not about the numbers being correct or wrong its simply about why they dont work as maids, construction, labor, janitors and things like that. would they rather hold up a key infront of the U.N building all day waiting for a free handout of food? In Lebanon it takes 6 ot 7 months for a single party to form a government so if they want a better life they can work in the labor force and use that money to do whatever they want. The government cant fix a stop light without it taking 5 or 6 years of political negotiations so they are not going to get any help unless they do it alone.

        4. 5thDrawer Avatar
          5thDrawer

          Just a quick question … would you hire a woman and train her … possibly as a plumber or electrician?

        5. brinpol Avatar
          brinpol

          “Palestinians are too proud to work in construction or as maids”

          And how many Lebanese are willing to? The only reason there is a shortage is because WE Lebanese are too proud to do those jobs as well.

    2. brinpol Avatar
      brinpol

      Druze and Christians were slaughtering each other in the 1800s long before the Palestinians showed up. And there was a civil war in the 1950s which the Lebanese like to forget ever happened. Of course, as always, the Lebanese tend to blame others for their own mistakes and shortcomings. A 15 year civil war that was the fault of the Palestinians? Damn, we Lebanese haven’t learned a thing, have we?

  7.  Avatar
    Anonymous

    Lebanon has suffered the most for Palestine and its people. We never had a war or civil strife in Lebanon until they showed up. We gave them all our trust and allowed them to train and fight Israel from Lebanon when the rest of the Arabs turned away. We took in 500,000 people and gave them whatever they needed until they turned those guns on us and decided that the road to Palestine starts in Juni (basically they decided they would just take lebanon and make it a Palestinian nation). Now they are being treated in a way where they can be controlled because they can not be trusted. Look at what they did in Naher Al Barid. If you allow 500,000 of them to roam around freely its only a matter of time before they all join this or that armed group and then take it over and start a new war. Im sorry I have to say this but its the truth. Once they have a state they can go back and live in it. I dont think its Israels business if a Palestinian state allows its refuges to return as long as they live in the boundaries of this new state and not in Israel.

    1. 316909
                I am not going to disagree with you that many problems in Lebanon involved Palestinian refugees. That is a fact but that also is besides the point. Whether it is 1% of the Palestinian refugees that have acted to de stablize Lebanon or whethr it was a majority is not the issue. Once they are integrated then those that break the law will be held accountable for their actions. Why should those that have been brought up in wretched poverty and sub human conditions develop a feeling of allegiance to the place that mistreats them?

      1.  Avatar
        Anonymous

        @Ghassan Karam. They had about 100,000 armed men in Lebanon and took over the country. I think we all hear stories of what they did to the people and how they treated civilians. Before they can be integrated they have to want to be Lebanese or at least live under our rules. At the moment the Lebanese police and Army are not even allowed into the camps under an agreement with the Arab League. The camps are filled with armed groups and illegal activity. Before you allow them to roam around the country you have to at least go into every single one of the camps and clear it of weapons (witch they would not accept to begin with). If you ever go to Sayda and just sit around near ain al hilwi camp all you hear is gun fire most of the time. the news had stopped reporting it because they do it all the time its not even news any more. Another thing is we have no law in Lebanon. Our laws are enforced on the weak and the poor while armed gangs and the elite class get away with anything. Imagine opeing the camps and allowing these armed groups to have the freedom of running around doing what they want. The people in the camps are also mostly uneducated and have one of two options to live. 1. open some sort of small business like a dikani or smoke shop or join one of the many armed groups. Before you can allow them to live in Lebanon you have to 1. clear the camps, Invest in schools and colleges and start allowing the educated to slowly move out of the camps into Lebanon and live as normal Lebanese would. You also have to think about the balance in Lebanon. 500,000 more Sunni in Lebanon would scare the hell out of HA and most Christians so basically its never going to happen and if they try it would lead to another civil war in my opinion. At the moment we have them under control to a certain extent and nothing can be done unless the camps are cleared.

        1. 316909
                     You are still trying to find a rational for keeping the status quo. What I am suggesting is a new approach, a different policy . Had Lebanon treated the Palestinian refugees differently then there would have been no camps to complain about.  BTW, there is a popular saying: “You are entitled to your own opinion but not to your own facts”:-) Unfortunately practically all the figures that you have used are wrong and by a large margin.
                   Palestinian in the camps are not 500,000 but only 225,000. The other 200,000 already live outside the camps.
                   Lebanon has a large number of house maids from many Asian and African countries but not a million. It is around 150,000.
                 

        2.  Avatar
          Anonymous

          Mr.Karam, Why do the u.n say 400,000 witch mainly live in or around the camps? and why do they say that another 100,000 live out of the camps as Lebanese citizens already? About the maids I could be wrong because I didnt look into it its a number I hear all the time. I know we have over 1 million labor from syria mainly. either way even if we have 50,000 refugees in the camps why are they not working and waiting around to become the ceo of ibm? My point was we have a need for labor and they are already in the country and have not tried to fill that gap even though they have no money to eat and wait around for handouts from an ngo or some un organization. I dont hate Palestinians at all. My wife is originally from Palestine so my kids are half Palestinian (her father went to the uae in 1948 at the age of 17 and became a citizen in the late 80s but he is still originally from Palestine) im just stating a fact on the ground. 

        3.  Avatar
          Anonymous

          Just a quick question … would you hire a woman and train her ?

        4. brinpol Avatar
          brinpol

          “Palestinians are too proud to work in construction or as maids”

          And how many Lebanese are willing to? The only reason there is a shortage is because WE Lebanese are too proud to do those jobs as well.

    2. brinpol Avatar
      brinpol

      Druze and Christians were slaughtering each other in the 1800s long before the Palestinians showed up. And there was a civil war in the 1950s which the Lebanese like to forget ever happened. Of course, as always, the Lebanese tend to blame others for their own mistakes and shortcomings. A 15 year civil war that was the fault of the Palestinians? Damn, we Lebanese haven’t learned a thing, have we?

  8.  Avatar
    Anonymous

    Lebanon has suffered the most for Palestine and its people. We never had a war or civil strife in Lebanon until they showed up. We gave them all our trust and allowed them to train and fight Israel from Lebanon when the rest of the Arabs turned away. We took in 500,000 people and gave them whatever they needed until they turned those guns on us and decided that the road to Palestine starts in Juni (basically they decided they would just take lebanon and make it a Palestinian nation). Now they are being treated in a way where they can be controlled because they can not be trusted. Look at what they did in Naher Al Barid. If you allow 500,000 of them to roam around freely its only a matter of time before they all join this or that armed group and then take it over and start a new war. Im sorry I have to say this but its the truth. Once they have a state they can go back and live in it. I dont think its Israels business if a Palestinian state allows its refuges to return as long as they live in the boundaries of this new state and not in Israel.

  9. Hannibal Avatar
    Hannibal

    The best solution is for Israel to accept a two states solution. This conflict will only end with the end of Israel as we know it, today, tomorrow or 100 years from now. It is a simple demographics number. Even the Arabs in Israel proper will triple in size whereas the Jews cannot keep up. It is only a matter of time before you are out voted.
    Here is a suggestion that should work for all. Allow the Palestinians to go back if they wish it. The ones that do not wish it should be allowed to choose the country they want to settle in and integrate and be given full citizenship of their choosing ONLY if they do not want to go back home. A Palestinian state should recognize the right of Israel to exist as well as Israel should recognize Palestine. For heaven’s sake give us all peace… Enough is enough.
    As far as the Palestinians in Lebanon and despite the past mistakes committed by the PLO, I fail to see how an uneducated Palestinian would be able to demand a return home better than an educated and a well rounded one? Please enlighten me people… Ghassan as usual a great article.

    1. Ghassan Karam Avatar
      Ghassan Karam

      Hannibal,
                  The gist of your solution will have to be ultimately adopted. That is a ver sensible way of looking at this issue.

    2. 316909 Avatar

      Its not about them being educated or not witch gives them the right to return home. its what we do with all these uneducated people while they live in lebanon. Since they have not even attempted to become part of the labor force we import from asia and syria we will be dealing with young uneducated men that would rather join an armed group to gain respect than work as a garbage collector or a construction worker. Giving them EU passports and U.S passports would basically give them the right to enter Israel any time they want (since eu and u.s citizens dont need a visa to go to Israel) and thats what Israel dont want to begin with. I think the refuges in Lebanon should have no choice but to leave or given compensation and allowed to go to S.America C.America and Africa mainly with a small amount being spread out in europe and the u.s. By the time Israeli arabs are the majority the israeli government will probably deport them and import more European jews. they have done almost everything but that so its not impossible for them to take one more step. I dont think they will ever allow it no matter what. a simple less sinister solution would be to not allow them to vote any more. Israel already has a law banning people from working in the public sector, government and most other jobs if they have not served in the Israeli army draft and the arabs are not allowed to serve in the army to begin with. Arab israeli citizens basically work for arab owned companies only or open a business so extending that law to voting would be simple. One way or the other they will get rid of them and deal with the problem. Back to the refuges; Israel dont even want to allow them to return to a new Palestinian state so what makes you think they want them entering Israel for 6 months at a time without a visa using a eu passport or u.s passport. Why do you think most Palestinians in America, europe, canada have work permits and are still under refuge status even after 20 or 30 or 40 years? Its because they dont want them to gain citizenship and have the ability to even visit israel. the only palestinians that normally get u.s citizenship are from jordan or egypt and apply as Jordanians or whatever other country.

      1. Hannibal Avatar
        Hannibal

        316909
        You speak of Palestinians as if they are subhumans or something. Even an Israeli fails to reach your level of racism. I bet you were one of those militia criminals who entered the camps of Sabra and Shatila under the Israeli cover.
        Let me ask you this… Are you OK with toppling the Assad regime in Syria? That is exactly what will ultimately happen in Israel. People vs. a regime. People vs. a minority Alaouites usurping the freedoms and People vs. a Jewish minority. If Israel wants to survive as a Jewish state it has to agree to a two states solution… That way the non-jews (I refuse to call them Arabs) of Israel can move to a nearby Palestinian state.

        1. 316909 Avatar

          You just lost your bet because 1 im not a criminal and 2 im not part of a militia. I didnt mention the 2 states in my comment. I simply said when they have a state they should go live in it and its not up to Israel to decide who lives in a new Palestinian state. I was also telling you the truth about how Palestinians are treated in the EU and U.S and are basically life long refugees with permits but not citizenship because that would allow them to return to Palestine with a western passport and no need for a visa. Israel has not even agreed to let the refugees in Lebanon go live in a Palestinian state so what makes you think they will allow them to have the right to visit Israel for 6 months without needing a visa.  I stated facts and the truth hurts so I guess thats why youre mad. Its a reality that we have to deal with. Whats done is done and to integrate them into society they need to be rehabilitated with education and jobs. the jobs are avlb in the labor sector and they have not filled the gap in construction and domestic labor. The regime in Syria is not in Lebanon and so I could care less about them. I would like them to go, but if they dont I hope they learn a lesson though I dont think they will ever learn anything. Lebanon cant even take care of Lebanon. We have no social security, medical and education programs for our own citizens almost. The government collapses and takes 7 or 8 months to be formed ever other week almost. A hole in the road needs 50 meetings between march 8 and 14 to get repaired so the government is not going to help them. They should work, save, get educated and then it would be easy to integrate then into our society until they have a state and have to leave. About the non jews leaving. The druz have become part of Israel on every level of society. Political, Military and socially they have become part of Israel and no longer want to be arabs. Also the west bank and Gaza cant take in all the arabs in Israel and the millions of refugees. its better to ban them from voting because they have not served in the Army (and they cant to begin with) and collect taxes off them. P.S as I mentioned before my wife is from Palestine so Im not racist either. My mother is Maronite, Sunni father, Sister married a Israeli/American Jew, Other sister married a American/Lebanese Christian and 3rd Married a Shia Army officer in Lebanon. Im the last person you want to call racist.

        2. eblashko Avatar
          eblashko

          I wish it were that simple. The problem is that the “non-Jews” you speak of (and in this case I’m talking about Sunni Muslim, Arabic-speaking, non-Bedouin non-Jews) get super angry and defensive every time a proposal is passed around to swap land so that their villages will be in Palestine and the settlements will be in Israel. They love their Israeli citizenship. Only in Israel can they not work and not join the army, have tons of children, and have their entire lives and health care needs supported by the state. (The ultra-orthodox religious Jews, who we call Haredim, are the same way, and in my opinion are even more disgusting).

          I hope that in the next elections a party emerges that states clearly and simply: If you don’t donate 3 years of your life to the state, either through army service or through 3 years of community service, then you don’t get the benefits of citizenship. Then we’ll see how many Haredim and Arabs want to stay living here without the state to support their enormous, unemployed families. Not only that, but the non-Jewish minorities who do contribute, like the Druze, Bedouins, Armenians, and Circassians, can get the credit and recognition that they deserve so much.

        3. 5thDrawer Avatar
          5thDrawer

          Hope that includes the Christian Palestinians ….

        4. Eblashko and 316909,

          I just wanted to say in islam we are entitled to marry jews or christians who are considered people of the book,

          even In Iran the head Rabbi there and all the jewish followers were offered a home and money to relocate back

          to Israel,and the head rabbi refused this offer and said we are treated no different here than we would be in Israel,

          I have persian freinds that hate the goverment but did tell me this is true, that one thing they give them credit for

          is they are very fair to minorities and this goes back to the Khominie who issued this law…another thing 316909

          mentioned was the temple in lebanon,if you research this its historic and it was HA that requested to the goverment

          that they update and take care of this temple for the jews…My question to you Eblashko is do you think HA and Iran

          have an issue with judiasm as a whole,or do you think strictly zionism,i beleive its bout zionism,but would like to get

          your take on it..Good day to guys…

      2. Hannibal Avatar
        Hannibal

        316909
        You speak of Palestinians as if they are subhumans or something. Even an Israeli fails to reach your level of racism. I bet you were one of those militia criminals who entered the camps of Sabra and Shatila under the Israeli cover.
        Let me ask you this… Are you OK with toppling the Assad regime in Syria? That is exactly what will ultimately happen in Israel. People vs. a regime. People vs. a minority Alaouites usurping the freedoms and People vs. a Jewish minority. If Israel wants to survive as a Jewish state it has to agree to a two states solution… That way the non-jews (I refuse to call them Arabs) of Israel can move to a nearby Palestinian state.

        1. eblashko Avatar
          eblashko

          I wish it were that simple. The problem is that the “non-Jews” you speak of (and in this case I’m talking about Sunni Muslim, Arabic-speaking, non-Bedouin non-Jews) get super angry and defensive every time a proposal is passed around to swap land so that their villages will be in Palestine and the settlements will be in Israel. They love their Israeli citizenship. Only in Israel can they not work and not join the army, have tons of children, and have their entire lives and health care needs supported by the state. (The ultra-orthodox religious Jews, who we call Haredim, are the same way, and in my opinion are even more disgusting).

          I hope that in the next elections a party emerges that states clearly and simply: If you don’t donate 3 years of your life to the state, either through army service or through 3 years of community service, then you don’t get the benefits of citizenship. Then we’ll see how many Haredim and Arabs want to stay living here without the state to support their enormous, unemployed families. Not only that, but the non-Jewish minorities who do contribute, like the Druze, Bedouins, Armenians, and Circassians, can get the credit and recognition that they deserve so much.

      3. eblashko Avatar
        eblashko

        “My mother is Maronite, Sunni father, Sister married a Israeli/American
        Jew, Other sister married a American/Lebanese Christian and 3rd Married a
        Shia Army officer in Lebanon.”

        My friend, you are a true Semite. I’m sure your family history gives you a very fair and balanced view of this stupid conflict. I’m actually kind of jealous.

        I’m very happy to hear that your sister in America married an Israeli Jew. I hope they’re raising their children to be proud of both cultures. Maybe they will grow up to save the world one day.

        The blue line is just a construct put in place by the British and French. And despite our divergent histories and religions, the Maronites, Alawites, Jews, Druze, and Muslims of the region were all originally one Canaanite speaking Semitic nation. Now we have independence from foreign empires and we can’t stop fighting with each other. How did it come to this??

        1. 316909 Avatar

          Thats how they wanted it. They want us to fight. The Jews lived side by side with arabs for thousands of years before all this started. The British gave both sides weapons and trained both sides then left.

        2. Ghassan Karam Avatar
          Ghassan Karam

          eblashko,
                       Spoken like a true cosmopolitan .Bravo.

          316909,
                     The family quilt that you describe is one that should be the envy of all.. Frankly I have not heard of all of these combinations within one family unit before. What does the family observe, Christian, Moslem or Jewish holidays?

        3. Ghassan Karam Avatar
          Ghassan Karam

          eblashko,
                       Spoken like a true cosmopolitan .Bravo.

          316909,
                     The family quilt that you describe is one that should be the envy of all.. Frankly I have not heard of all of these combinations within one family unit before. What does the family observe, Christian, Moslem or Jewish holidays?

        4. 316909 Avatar

          Mr Karam, Its called living in Los Angeles. So many cultures and no one cares where youre from and what religion you follow. I guess we celebrate them all. Normally its because I get invited for a holiday dinner and I cant say no. My sister in Lebanon is a little different since she lives in Lebanon (she celebrates Christian and Muslim Hollidays). We have a family estate in West Wood Ca my two sisters in the U.S live in and my parents stay in when visiting so its hard not to celebrate all. My house is in Manhattan Beach so its not far from them at all. My wife and I are Agnostic her mother is Christian from Czech and her dad is Palestinian but became a U.A.E citizen like 40 years after living in the U.A.E. He told me the only reason they gave him the citizenship is because he became really wealthy and he is Sunni. I meet her in Los Angeles (she was visiting her brother and trying to become a model so I snapped her up. Not every day you meet an arabic girl with natural blond hair, blue eyes and has a body to die for) and both of us growing up in a mixed family helped us kick it off.
          I have been spending a lot of time in Lebanon now and a friend of mine at the gym likes a girl he has not asked out because he is sunni and she is druz and I was thinking if you only knew I have Jewish, Christian and Muslim nephews, nieces and cousins…..

        5. kareemthehippy Avatar
          kareemthehippy

          Gotta love Imperialism.

        6. kareemthehippy Avatar
          kareemthehippy

          Gotta love Imperialism.

      4. Mazen_M Avatar
        Mazen_M

        316909….I couldn’t reply to your comment below, so I replied here. You are married!!!??? Wow you must have an open marriage becuase I remember a week ago or something you wrote that “I own a pub in Gemayzeh and basically when Im in lebanon I get at least one or 2 chances to get laid a week and this guy is talking about violating his girl”.  I don’t know how you do it because I’m getting engaged soon and I can’t even imagine what she will do if I do that:)  And by the way, tell your friend not to waste his time with the Druze girl because it won’t work. We only marry Druze. Sorry to say that but that’s how it is and we are happy with that…..

        1. 316909 Avatar

          I travel alone for work and when I have the chance to sleep with a women better looking or just as good looking as my wife I do. its not an open relationship I have kids. You dont let her know and make sure she always has money to go out and look good. I didnt think I would cheat but then I got married and I was in las Vegas and it happened. I didnt even feel bad about it witch I thought I would. I realized all men cheat later on as my friends started getting married and i would meet other married guys. you say youre not until you get married then you do. I travel and my wife stays home with our 2 kids. Im young, 2hr a day in the gym, Pretty wealthy and when I get the chance I do it. Just make sure you dont start some sort of a relationship. My wife hates Lebanon so I dont have to worry but I dont play games at the los angels location because she knows all the staff….. Its called cheating to make it simple.

        2. 316909 Avatar

          Mazen, if Christ himself saw that druz girls butt and boobs he would convert and become druz. she is a little flirt!!!! Man she dresses like one of those porn chicks that are supposed to be working out (im sure you know what I mean. The porn chick in the gym that gets nailed by the coach). I swear if I didnt like him I would try and if she said no your not druz ill convert and if she still said no I would basically start stalking her! This chick is f——king FINE !!!!  And she knows the guys are watching her so she starts doing squats or walking up and asking for advice and things like that. its driving him crazy and I just want him to get it out of his system. I dont know how he knows her religion because to me she just looks like a nice little piece of ass.

      5. Mazen_M Avatar
        Mazen_M

        316909….I couldn’t reply to your comment below, so I replied here. You are married!!!??? Wow you must have an open marriage becuase I remember a week ago or something you wrote that “I own a pub in Gemayzeh and basically when Im in lebanon I get at least one or 2 chances to get laid a week and this guy is talking about violating his girl”.  I don’t know how you do it because I’m getting engaged soon and I can’t even imagine what she will do if I do that:)  And by the way, tell your friend not to waste his time with the Druze girl because it won’t work. We only marry Druze. Sorry to say that but that’s how it is and we are happy with that…..

      6. eblashko Avatar
        eblashko

        Hey 316909, I have a logistical question about your sister and her husband.

        So I don’t know about Lebanese Law, but according to Israeli Law, if you marry an Israeli citizen, you also become an Israeli citizen. I guess that means that your sister is both an Israeli citizen and a Lebanese citizen. Are there ever any issues with her going to visit Lebanon? Is she able to visit her husband’s family in Israel? Is he allowed to go to Lebanon to visit your family even though he’s also an Israeli citizen?

        Also, I was wondering if they’re raising their children to speak both languages?

        I’m sorry if I’m being nosy, but this is very interesting to me.

        Also, I just noticed in your above comment: “Israel already has a law banning people from working in the public sector, government and most other jobs if they have not served in the Israeli army draft and the arabs are not allowed to serve in the army to begin with”

        This is wrong. Arabs are not only allowed to serve, but they are very encouraged to. Aside from the Druze, who upon their own request, are required to serve, many Bedouin join too and even a few non-Bedouin and non-Druze Arabs join. For some inspiring stories, you should wikipedia “Amos Yarkoni” for a good read about the most famous Bedouin soldier or google “Elinor Joseph”, the first female Arab Israel combat soldier (who also happens to be super cute). There are memorials and statues all over the country commemorating the service of Arabs in the IDF. Unfortunately, most don’t want to join. Also, as far as I know, there’s one Maronite village in Israel, called Jish, and I think that most young men there serve as well.

        1. 316909 Avatar

          Well he has a sister in Haifa and the rest of his family are in Los Angeles. They went to Israel from Iran (Persian Jew)  and I dont know if he actually has a Israeli passport or not. I just know they left after the Islamic revolution in Iran and then went to Israel for 16 years and finally Los Angles 15 years ago. I dont know if she ever applied for a Israeli passport or has one its not my business so I dont ask.  In Lebanese law only men can give citizenship if they marry a person from another country. We have a draft law that will allow women to do the same so its going to change soon. My sister did visit Lebanon a few times and its no secret in our extended family who her husband is. After all as American citizens its not Lebanon’s business who we marry or talk to. Basically other users replying to your posts can go to jail under Lebanese law unless they have another citizenship. I dont even have a Lebanese passport. I was born in Boston and my father never registered us in Lebanon. They have 1 child and she is only 4 months old so I dont know about the language yet. Her Husband has not been to Lebanon but Im sure he can as an american citizen not israeli. After all we have Jews in Lebanon and a Jewish temple is being rebuilt in downtown Beirut financed by the government and local Lebanese Jews. You know He actually used to worked for me before he married my sister and he lied about being a Jew because he thought I would fire him and then opened up when he realized my partners were a Israeli/American family. My sister also worked for me and thats how they started dating. We already knew he was a Jew by then. The thing most Lebanese dont realize is Lebanon are at war with Israel witch includes Druz, Muslims (bedawin) and Jews in its Military not the Jewish religion

        2. 316909 Avatar

          West Wood is basically Beverly Hills so I know it well. I live about 15 min from BH in Manhattan Beach only because I love the beach. I went to UCLA and joined the Army ROTC program they have. Lots of Jews from Iran in west Los Angeles as a whole!!! My first Girl Friend in Los Angeles after coming back from Australia was a persian Jew with the biggest boobs I have ever seen. I swear this girl was 5-8 105lbs with 38dd natural. The 105lbs were all in her tits and butt. She ended up going to UC Berkley to study intellectual law. I went to college in Australia first then moved back to the U.S and decided I would go back to school and thats when I went to UCLA and joined the Army. My real service time was 8 years but they count the 4 years in Rotc if you SMP (serve in the reserves while in Rotc). I studied hotel management in Australia and then economics in UCLA.

      7. eblashko Avatar
        eblashko

        Hey 316909, I have a logistical question about your sister and her husband.

        So I don’t know about Lebanese Law, but according to Israeli Law, if you marry an Israeli citizen, you also become an Israeli citizen. I guess that means that your sister is both an Israeli citizen and a Lebanese citizen. Are there ever any issues with her going to visit Lebanon? Is she able to visit her husband’s family in Israel? Is he allowed to go to Lebanon to visit your family even though he’s also an Israeli citizen?

        Also, I was wondering if they’re raising their children to speak both languages?

        I’m sorry if I’m being nosy, but this is very interesting to me.

        Also, I just noticed in your above comment: “Israel already has a law banning people from working in the public sector, government and most other jobs if they have not served in the Israeli army draft and the arabs are not allowed to serve in the army to begin with”

        This is wrong. Arabs are not only allowed to serve, but they are very encouraged to. Aside from the Druze, who upon their own request, are required to serve, many Bedouin join too and even a few non-Bedouin and non-Druze Arabs join. For some inspiring stories, you should wikipedia “Amos Yarkoni” for a good read about the most famous Bedouin soldier or google “Elinor Joseph”, the first female Arab Israel combat soldier (who also happens to be super cute). There are memorials and statues all over the country commemorating the service of Arabs in the IDF. Unfortunately, most don’t want to join. Also, as far as I know, there’s one Maronite village in Israel, called Jish, and I think that most young men there serve as well.

      8. eblashko Avatar
        eblashko

        Interesting family history. Yea, there are a lot of Israelis in LA and a LOT of Persian Jews. They say that there are more Persian Jews in Beverly Hills than in all of Israel. And I think that LA has the highest Israeli expat community of any city in the world. My stepmom is from LA, and her and my father’s wedding was there, so I’m kind of familiar with it.

        You and I seem to have kind of similar stories. I was also born to an expat Israeli father in America, and grew up there (in New Jersey). He never registered me either and I grew up an American citizen. I also grew up mildly religious, but like you, have since become agnostic, and like your interest in Lebanon, I was also quite interested in Israel, so after college, decided to move back to my father’s country, did the army, and now I’m studying medicine here in Haifa.

        You know Haifa is very very close to the Lebanese border. That’s one of the reasons why I’m so interested by it. And I know there are Jews in Lebanon. It was actually the only Arab country not to kick out its Jews after Israel was established. Unfortunately, Hezbollah is trying to change that relationship by carrying out attacks on non-Israeli Jewish targets like the synagogue in Buenos Aires in 1994 (pulled off with Iranian help of course). And then they have the audacity to claim that they’re just anti-Zionist and not anti-Jewish, as if there’s a difference.

      9. Mazen_M Avatar
        Mazen_M

        In that case let him have her:) I know what kind of girl your talking about…lol. I love women very much, but once I commit to a woman I can’t cheat out of respect to her. I know it is very tempting when you see a hot girl, but I can’t. Anyway, you are one hell of a character and remind me of my little brother the way he speaks about girls:) and he is getting married next month!!.

    3. PROPHET.T Avatar
      PROPHET.T

      Good comment hannibal,
      I’d add that Israel  needs  to  reconize that  it  has a better chance of surviving  if it agreed to  live  like  a normal state instead of  militarty ,dominating ,and threating  state to its  neighbors.

      1. libnan1 Avatar
        libnan1

        There is one neighbor they can’t threaten anymore, that is Lebanon. They are scared to shit from HA.

        Palestinians belong in Palestine, West bank or Gaza. They don’t belong in Lebanon, there aren’t enough room for them to live in Lebanon. The whole world should deal with this issue, not only the Lebanese.

        1. kareemthehippy Avatar
          kareemthehippy

          I don’t know man. Israel won’t stop messing with Lebanon until it gains something, even if it’s more territory or a slight military victory.

          Palestinians belong in Palestine, but they’re being persecuted. What do we do? Let them rot? What would happen if Syria came in and made Lebanon an open-air prison like Gaza? I’d sure as hell hope my neighboring country would welcome me so I can live.

    4. 5thDrawer Avatar
      5thDrawer

      Overpopulating the Earth is not a good plan – ( already too many )

    5. Jojo Lolo Avatar
      Jojo Lolo

      Maybe you should check the demographic numbers before you write. Arab fertility is crumbling, in Israel and in all the Arab world, while Jewish fertility is stable and even growing. Before 2020, Jewish fertility inside Israel will be higher than that of the Arabs and probably also than that of the West Bank. It is already higher than Lebanon.
      Does not mean that you are not right about the two State solution of course.

      1. eblashko Avatar
        eblashko

         Yea Jojo, you’re right, but remember. The “Jews” who are reproducing so much aren’t the good, Zionist, patriotic secular Jews, or even the good, Zionist, patriotic National Religious Jews… they’re the anti-Zionist, unpatriotic, unemployed, Ultra-Orthodox Haredim. Although these people practice Judaism, I refuse to group them in with the rest of us. They’re an even bigger harm to the state than the Arabs are. If we don’t start having more kids, or change the laws to stop welfare so these leeches have to go back to Brooklyn, then by 2020, 50% of students in Israel are going to be Yiddish-speaking Haredi. Forget the 2 state solution or even the idea of a state. These psychos are going to Turn all of Israel (and Palestine) into 16th century Poland.

  10. The best solution is for Israel to accept a two states solution. This conflict will only end with the end of Israel as we know it, today, tomorrow or 100 years from now. It is a simple demographics number. Even the Arabs in Israel proper will triple in size whereas the Jews cannot keep up. It is only a matter of time before you are out voted.
    Here is a suggestion that should work for all. Allow the Palestinians to go back if they wish it. The ones that do not wish it should be allowed to choose the country they want to settle in and integrate and be given full citizenship of their choosing ONLY if they do not want to go back home. A Palestinian state should recognize the right of Israel to exist as well as Israel should recognize Palestine. For heaven’s sake give us all peace… Enough is enough.
    As far as the Palestinians in Lebanon and despite the past mistakes committed by the PLO, I fail to see how an uneducated Palestinian would be able to demand a return home better than an educated and a well rounded one? Please enlighten me people… Ghassan as usual a great article.

    1. Hannibal,
                  The gist of your solution will have to be ultimately adopted. That is a ver sensible way of looking at this issue.

    2.  Avatar
      Anonymous

      Its not about them being educated or not witch gives them the right to return home. its what we do with all these uneducated people while they live in lebanon. Since they have not even attempted to become part of the labor force we import from asia and syria we will be dealing with young uneducated men that would rather join an armed group to gain respect than work as a garbage collector or a construction worker. Giving them EU passports and U.S passports would basically give them the right to enter Israel any time they want (since eu and u.s citizens dont need a visa to go to Israel) and thats what Israel dont want to begin with. I think the refuges in Lebanon should have no choice but to leave or given compensation and allowed to go to S.America C.America and Africa mainly with a small amount being spread out in europe and the u.s. By the time Israeli arabs are the majority the israeli government will probably deport them and import more European jews. they have done almost everything but that so its not impossible for them to take one more step. I dont think they will ever allow it no matter what. One way or the other they will get rid of them and deal with the problem. Back to the refuges; Israel dont even want to allow them to return to a new Palestinian state so what makes you think they want them entering Israel for 6 months at a time without a visa using a eu passport or u.s passport. Why do you think most Palestinians in America, europe, canada have work permits and are still under refuge status even after 20 or 30 or 40 years? Its because they dont want them to gain citizenship and have the ability to even visit israel. the only palestinians that normally get u.s citizenship are from jordan or egypt and apply as Jordanians or whatever other country.

      1. 316909
        You speak of Palestinians as if they are subhumans or something. Even an Israeli fails to reach your level of racism. I bet you were one of those militia criminals who entered the camps of Sabra and Shatila under the Israeli cover.
        Let me ask you this… Are you OK with toppling the Assad regime in Syria? That is exactly what will ultimately happen in Israel. People vs. a regime. People vs. a minority Alaouites usurping the freedoms and People vs. a Jewish minority. If Israel wants to survive as a Jewish state it has to agree to a two states solution… That way the non-jews (I refuse to call them Arabs) of Israel can move to a nearby Palestinian state.

        1.  Avatar
          Anonymous

          You just lost your bet because 1 im not a criminal and 2 im not part of a militia. I didnt mention the 2 states in my comment. I simply said when they have a state they should go live in it and its not up to Israel to decide who lives in a new Palestinian state. I was also telling you the truth about how Palestinians are treated in the EU and U.S and are basically life long refugees with permits but not citizenship because that would allow them to return to Palestine with a western passport and no need for a visa. Israel has not even agreed to let the refugees in Lebanon go live in a Palestinian state so what makes you think they will allow them to have the right to visit Israel for 6 months without needing a visa.  I stated facts and the truth hurts so I guess thats why youre mad. Its a reality that we have to deal with. Whats done is done and to integrate them into society they need to be rehabilitated with education and jobs. the jobs are avlb in the labor sector and they have not filled the gap in construction and domestic labor. The regime in Syria is not in Lebanon and so I could care less about them. I would like them to go, but if they dont I hope they learn a lesson though I dont think they will ever learn anything. Lebanon cant even take care of Lebanon. We have no social security, medical and education programs for our own citizens almost. The government collapses and takes 7 or 8 months to be formed ever other week almost. A hole in the road needs 50 meetings between march 8 and 14 to get repaired so the government is not going to help them. They should work, save, get educated and then it would be easy to integrate then into our society until they have a state and have to leave.

        2.  Avatar
          Anonymous

          I wish it were that simple. The problem is that the “non-Jews” you speak of (and in this case I’m talking about Sunni Muslim, Arabic-speaking, non-Bedouin non-Jews) get super angry and defensive every time a proposal is passed around to swap land so that their villages will be in Palestine and the settlements will be in Israel. They love their Israeli citizenship. Only in Israel can they not work and not join the army, have tons of children, and have their entire lives and health care needs supported by the state. (The ultra-orthodox religious Jews, who we call Haredim, are the same way, and in my opinion are even more disgusting).

          I hope that in the next elections a party emerges that states clearly and simply: If you don’t donate 3 years of your life to the state, either through army service or through 3 years of community service, then you don’t get the benefits of citizenship. Then we’ll see how many Haredim and Arabs want to stay living here without the state to support their enormous, unemployed families. Not only that, but the non-Jewish minorities who do contribute, like the Druze, Bedouins, Armenians, and Circassians, can get the credit and recognition that they deserve so much.

        3.  Avatar
          Anonymous

          Hope that includes the Christian Palestinians ….

        4. Eblashko and 316909,

          I just wanted to say in islam we are entitled to marry jews or christians who are considered people of the book,

          even In Iran the head Rabbi there and all the jewish followers were offered a home and money to relocate back

          to Israel,and the head rabbi refused this offer and said we are treated no different here than we would be in Israel,

          I have persian freinds that hate the goverment but did tell me this is true, that one thing they give them credit for

          is they are very fair to minorities and this goes back to the Khominie who issued this law…another thing 316909

          mentioned was the temple in lebanon,if you research this its historic and it was HA that requested to the goverment

          that they update and take care of this temple for the jews…My question to you Eblashko is do you think HA and Iran

          have an issue with judiasm as a whole,or do you think strictly zionism,i beleive its bout zionism,but would like to get

          your take on it..Good day to guys…

      2. 316909
        You speak of Palestinians as if they are subhumans or something. Even an Israeli fails to reach your level of racism. I bet you were one of those militia criminals who entered the camps of Sabra and Shatila under the Israeli cover.
        Let me ask you this… Are you OK with toppling the Assad regime in Syria? That is exactly what will ultimately happen in Israel. People vs. a regime. People vs. a minority Alaouites usurping the freedoms and People vs. a Jewish minority. If Israel wants to survive as a Jewish state it has to agree to a two states solution… That way the non-jews (I refuse to call them Arabs) of Israel can move to a nearby Palestinian state.

      3.  Avatar
        Anonymous

        “My mother is Maronite, Sunni father, Sister married a Israeli/American
        Jew, Other sister married a American/Lebanese Christian and 3rd Married a
        Shia Army officer in Lebanon.”

        My friend, you are a true Semite. I’m sure your family history gives you a very fair and balanced view of this stupid conflict. I’m actually kind of jealous.

        I’m very happy to hear that your sister in America married an Israeli Jew. I hope they’re raising their children to be proud of both cultures. Maybe they will grow up to save the world one day.

        The blue line is just a construct put in place by the British and French. And despite our divergent histories and religions, the Maronites, Alawites, Jews, Druze, and Muslims of the region were all originally one Canaanite speaking Semitic nation. Now we have independence from foreign empires and we can’t stop fighting with each other. How did it come to this??

        1.  Avatar
          Anonymous

          Thats how they wanted it. They want us to fight. The Jews lived side by side with arabs for thousands of years before all this started. The British gave both sides weapons and trained both sides then left.

        2. eblashko,
                       Spoken like a true cosmopolitan .Bravo.

          316909,
                     The family quilt that you describe is one that should be the envy of all.. Frankly I have not heard of all of these combinations within one family unit before. What does the family observe, Christian, Moslem or Jewish holidays?

        3.  Avatar
          Anonymous

          Mr Karam, Its called living in Los Angeles. So many cultures and no one cares where youre from and what religion you follow. I guess we celebrate them all. Normally its because I get invited for a holiday dinner and I cant say no. My sister in Lebanon is a little different since she lives in Lebanon (she celebrates Christian and Muslim Hollidays). We have a family estate in West Wood Ca my two sisters in the U.S live in and my parents stay in when visiting so its hard not to celebrate all. My house is in Manhattan Beach so its not far from them at all. My wife and I are Agnostic her mother is Christian from Czech and her dad is Palestinian but became a U.A.E citizen like 40 years after living in the U.A.E. He told me the only reason they gave him the citizenship is because he became really wealthy and he is Sunni. I meet her in Los Angeles (she was visiting her brother and trying to become a model so I snapped her up. Not every day you meet an arabic girl with natural blond hair, blue eyes and has a body to die for) and both of us growing up in a mixed family helped us kick it off.
          I have been spending a lot of time in Lebanon now and a friend of mine at the gym likes a girl he has not asked out because he is sunni and she is druz and I was thinking if you only knew I have Jewish, Christian and Muslim nephews, nieces and cousins…..

        4.  Avatar
          Anonymous

          Mr Karam, Its called living in Los Angeles. So many cultures and no one cares where youre from and what religion you follow. I guess we celebrate them all. Normally its because I get invited for a holiday dinner and I cant say no. My sister in Lebanon is a little different since she lives in Lebanon (she celebrates Christian and Muslim Hollidays). We have a family estate in West Wood Ca my two sisters in the U.S live in and my parents stay in when visiting so its hard not to celebrate all. My house is in Manhattan Beach so its not far from them at all. My wife and I are Agnostic her mother is Christian from Czech and her dad is Palestinian but became a U.A.E citizen like 40 years after living in the U.A.E. He told me the only reason they gave him the citizenship is because he became really wealthy and he is Sunni. I meet her in Los Angeles (she was visiting her brother and trying to become a model so I snapped her up. Not every day you meet an arabic girl with natural blond hair, blue eyes and has a body to die for) and both of us growing up in a mixed family helped us kick it off.
          I have been spending a lot of time in Lebanon now and a friend of mine at the gym likes a girl he has not asked out because he is sunni and she is druz and I was thinking if you only knew I have Jewish, Christian and Muslim nephews, nieces and cousins…..

        5.  Avatar
          Anonymous

          Gotta love Imperialism.

      4.  Avatar
        Anonymous

        316909….I couldn’t reply to your comment below, so I replied here. You are married!!!??? Wow you must have an open marriage becuase I remember a week ago or something you wrote that “I own a pub in Gemayzeh and basically when Im in lebanon I get at least one or 2 chances to get laid a week and this guy is talking about violating his girl”.  I don’t know how you do it because I’m getting engaged soon and I can’t even imagine what she will do if I do that:)  And by the way, tell your friend not to waste his time with the Druze girl because it won’t work. We only marry Druze. Sorry to say that but that’s how it is and we are happy with that…..

        1.  Avatar
          Anonymous

          I travel alone for work and when I have the chance to sleep with a women better looking or just as good looking as my wife I do. its not an open relationship I have kids. You dont let her know and make sure she always has money to go out and look good. I didnt think I would cheat but then I got married and I was in las Vegas and it happened. I didnt even feel bad about it witch I thought I would. I realized all men cheat later on as my friends started getting married and i would meet other married guys. you say youre not until you get married then you do. I travel and my wife stays home with our 2 kids. Im young, 2hr a day in the gym, Pretty wealthy and when I get the chance I do it. Just make sure you dont start some sort of a relationship. My wife hates Lebanon so I dont have to worry but I dont play games at the los angels location because she knows all the staff….. Its called cheating to make it simple.

        2.  Avatar
          Anonymous

          Mazen, if Christ himself saw that druz girls butt and boobs he would convert and become druz. she is a little flirt!!!! Man she dresses like one of those porn chicks that are supposed to be working out (im sure you know what I mean. The porn chick in the gym that gets nailed by the coach). I swear if I didnt like him I would try and if she said no your not druz ill convert and if she still said no I would basically start stalking her! This chick is f——king FINE !!!!  And she knows the guys are watching her so she starts doing squats or walking up and asking for advice and things like that. its driving him crazy and I just want him to get it out of his system. I dont know how he knows her religion because to me she just looks like a nice little piece of ass.

        3.  Avatar
          Anonymous

          Mazen, if Christ himself saw that druz girls butt and boobs he would convert and become druz. she is a little flirt!!!! Man she dresses like one of those porn chicks that are supposed to be working out (im sure you know what I mean. The porn chick in the gym that gets nailed by the coach). I swear if I didnt like him I would try and if she said no your not druz ill convert and if she still said no I would basically start stalking her! This chick is f——king FINE !!!!  And she knows the guys are watching her so she starts doing squats or walking up and asking for advice and things like that. its driving him crazy and I just want him to get it out of his system. I dont know how he knows her religion because to me she just looks like a nice little piece of ass.

      5.  Avatar
        Anonymous

        Hey 316909, I have a logistical question about your sister and her husband.

        So I don’t know about Lebanese Law, but according to Israeli Law, if you marry an Israeli citizen, you also become an Israeli citizen. I guess that means that your sister is both an Israeli citizen and a Lebanese citizen. Are there ever any issues with her going to visit Lebanon? Is she able to visit her husband’s family in Israel? Is he allowed to go to Lebanon to visit your family even though he’s also an Israeli citizen?

        Also, I was wondering if they’re raising their children to speak both languages?

        I’m sorry if I’m being nosy, but this is very interesting to me.

        1.  Avatar
          Anonymous

          Well he has a sister in Haifa and the rest of his family are in Los Angeles. They went to Israel from Iran (Persian Jew)  and I dont know if he actually has a Israeli passport or not. I just know they left after the Islamic revolution in Iran and then went to Israel for 16 years and finally Los Angles 15 years ago. I dont know if she ever applied for a Israeli passport or has one its not my business so I dont ask.  In Lebanese law only men can give citizenship if they marry a person from another country. We have a draft law that will allow women to do the same so its going to change soon. My sister did visit Lebanon a few times and its no secret in our extended family who her husband is. After all as American citizens its not Lebanon’s business who we marry or talk to. Basically other users replying to your posts can go to jail under Lebanese law unless they have another citizenship. I dont even have a Lebanese passport. I was born in Boston and my father never registered us in Lebanon. They have 1 child and she is only 4 months old so I dont know about the language yet. Her Husband has not been to Lebanon but Im sure he can as an american citizen not israeli. After all we have Jews in Lebanon and a Jewish temple is being rebuilt in downtown Beirut financed by the government and local Lebanese Jews. You know He actually used to worked for me before he married my sister and he lied about being a Jew because he thought I would fire him and then opened up when he realized my partners were a Israeli/American family. My sister also worked for me and thats how they started dating. We already knew he was a Jew by then.

        2.  Avatar
          Anonymous

          West Wood is basically Beverly Hills so I know it well. I live about 15 min from BH in Manhattan Beach only because I love the beach. I went to UCLA and joined the Army ROTC program they have. Lots of Jews from Iran in west Los Angeles as a whole!!! My first Girl Friend in Los Angeles after coming back from Australia was a persian Jew with the biggest boobs I have ever seen. I swear this girl was 5-8 105lbs with 38dd natural. The 105lbs were all in her tits and butt. She ended up going to UC Berkley to study intellectual law. I went to college in Australia first then moved back to the U.S and decided I would go back to school and thats when I went to UCLA and joined the Army. My real service time was 8 years but they count the 4 years in Rotc if you SMP (serve in the reserves while in Rotc). I studied hotel management in Australia and then economics in UCLA.

        3.  Avatar
          Anonymous

          West Wood is basically Beverly Hills so I know it well. I live about 15 min from BH in Manhattan Beach only because I love the beach. I went to UCLA and joined the Army ROTC program they have. Lots of Jews from Iran in west Los Angeles as a whole!!! My first Girl Friend in Los Angeles after coming back from Australia was a persian Jew with the biggest boobs I have ever seen. I swear this girl was 5-8 105lbs with 38dd natural. The 105lbs were all in her tits and butt. She ended up going to UC Berkley to study intellectual law. I went to college in Australia first then moved back to the U.S and decided I would go back to school and thats when I went to UCLA and joined the Army. My real service time was 8 years but they count the 4 years in Rotc if you SMP (serve in the reserves while in Rotc). I studied hotel management in Australia and then economics in UCLA.

      6.  Avatar
        Anonymous

        Interesting family history. Yea, there are a lot of Israelis in LA and a LOT of Persian Jews. They say that there are more Persian Jews in Beverly Hills than in all of Israel. And I think that LA has the highest Israeli expat community of any city in the world. My stepmom is from LA, and her and my father’s wedding was there, so I’m kind of familiar with it.

        You and I seem to have kind of similar stories. I was also born to an expat Israeli father in America, and grew up there (in New Jersey). He never registered me either and I grew up an American citizen. I also grew up mildly religious, but like you, have since become agnostic, and like your interest in Lebanon, I was also quite interested in Israel, so after college, decided to move back to my father’s country, did the army, and now I’m studying medicine here in Haifa.

        You know Haifa is very very close to the Lebanese border. That’s one of the reasons why I’m so interested by it. And I know there are Jews in Lebanon. It was actually the only Arab country not to kick out its Jews after Israel was established. Unfortunately, Hezbollah is trying to change that relationship by carrying out attacks on non-Israeli Jewish targets like the synagogue in Buenos Aires in 1994 (pulled off with Iranian help of course). And then they have the audacity to claim that they’re just anti-Zionist and not anti-Jewish, as if there’s a difference.

      7.  Avatar
        Anonymous

        In that case let him have her:) I know what kind of girl your talking about…lol. I love women very much, but once I commit to a woman I can’t cheat out of respect to her. I know it is very tempting when you see a hot girl, but I can’t. Anyway, you are one hell of a character and remind me of my little brother the way he speaks about girls:) and he is getting married next month!!.

    3. PROPHET.T Avatar
      PROPHET.T

      Good comment hannibal,
      I’d add that Israel  needs  to  reconize that  it  has a better chance of surviving  if it agreed to  live  like  a normal state instead of  militarty ,dominating ,and threating  state to its  neighbors.

      1.  Avatar
        Anonymous

        There is one neighbor they can’t threaten anymore, that is Lebanon. They are scared to shit from HA.

        Palestinians belong in Palestine, West bank or Gaza. They don’t belong in Lebanon, there aren’t enough room for them to live in Lebanon. The whole world should deal with this issue, not only the Lebanese.

        1.  Avatar
          Anonymous

          I don’t know man. Israel won’t stop messing with Lebanon until it gains something, even if it’s more territory or a slight military victory.

          Palestinians belong in Palestine, but they’re being persecuted. What do we do? Let them rot? What would happen if Syria came in and made Lebanon an open-air prison like Gaza? I’d sure as hell hope my neighboring country would welcome me so I can live.

      2.  Avatar
        Anonymous

        There is one neighbor they can’t threaten anymore, that is Lebanon. They are scared to shit from HA.

        Palestinians belong in Palestine, West bank or Gaza. They don’t belong in Lebanon, there aren’t enough room for them to live in Lebanon. The whole world should deal with this issue, not only the Lebanese.

      3.  Avatar
        Anonymous

        There is one neighbor they can’t threaten anymore, that is Lebanon. They are scared to shit from HA.

        Palestinians belong in Palestine, West bank or Gaza. They don’t belong in Lebanon, there aren’t enough room for them to live in Lebanon. The whole world should deal with this issue, not only the Lebanese.

      4.  Avatar
        Anonymous

        There is one neighbor they can’t threaten anymore, that is Lebanon. They are scared to shit from HA.

        Palestinians belong in Palestine, West bank or Gaza. They don’t belong in Lebanon, there aren’t enough room for them to live in Lebanon. The whole world should deal with this issue, not only the Lebanese.

    4.  Avatar
      Anonymous

      Overpopulating the Earth is not a good plan – ( already too many )

    5. Jojo Lolo Avatar
      Jojo Lolo

      Maybe you should check the demographic numbers before you write. Arab fertility is crumbling, in Israel and in all the Arab world, while Jewish fertility is stable and even growing. Before 2020, Jewish fertility inside Israel will be higher than that of the Arabs and probably also than that of the West Bank. It is already higher than Lebanon.
      Does not mean that you are not right about the two State solution of course.

      1.  Avatar
        Anonymous

         Yea Jojo, you’re right, but remember. The “Jews” who are reproducing so much aren’t the good, Zionist, patriotic secular Jews, or even the good, Zionist, patriotic National Religious Jews… they’re the anti-Zionist, unpatriotic, unemployed, Ultra-Orthodox Haredim. Although these people practice Judaism, I refuse to group them in with the rest of us. They’re an even bigger harm to the state than the Arabs are. If we don’t start having more kids, or change the laws to stop welfare so these leeches have to go back to Brooklyn, then by 2020, 50% of students in Israel are going to be Yiddish-speaking Haredi. Forget the 2 state solution or even the idea of a state. These psychos are going to Turn all of Israel (and Palestine) into 16th century Poland.

    6. Jojo Lolo Avatar
      Jojo Lolo

      Maybe you should check the demographic numbers before you write. Arab fertility is crumbling, in Israel and in all the Arab world, while Jewish fertility is stable and even growing. Before 2020, Jewish fertility inside Israel will be higher than that of the Arabs and probably also than that of the West Bank. It is already higher than Lebanon.
      Does not mean that you are not right about the two State solution of course.

  11. Beiruti Avatar
    Beiruti

    Palestinians Killed 40,000 Christians In Lebanon In 1976.Responsible for the massacre of Damour.
    They killed plenty of Shi’ites, Christians, and Sunnis in the south, completely savaged their houses.
    They were trying to use our country as the a replacement, they were liberating Palestinian flags in Beirut like it was Tel Aviv.
    When Israel came in 1982 they ran from the South like sissies to Beirut, caused Israel to savage Beirut killing 20,000 civilians.
    If that wasn’t enough they fought even more against Amal.
    The Lebanese were still decent enough to keep them in our country, what else do they do?They killed 221 Lebanese Soldiers (God Bless everyone of their souls) in Nahl-el Bared.

    What was this all for? Because the Lebanese opened their hearts out and sheltered the Palestinians. This is the way they have proven to show us respect and gratefulness for what we’ve done for them. Jordan kicked out thousands, i mean thousands of Palestinians during Black September and I cant really blame them. They should be grateful we didn’t do that to them. I have a little pity, but after Nahl-el Bared they are very lucky to still be in Lebanon and not kicked out back to Saudi Arabia or Jordan. As of now, they should wait until a Palestinian state is created and not start anymore problems, mabye then well show some respect back.They say you must show respect to get respect, the Lebanese are still waiting for that.

    1. Ghassan Karam Avatar
      Ghassan Karam

      Beiruti,
               I am not going to bore evryone by giving the same answer that I have already given to 316909 above. You are confusing the right of the Palestinian refugees as a group. the moral obligation of the Lebanese as a group and the fact that some Palestinians have abused and violated Lebanese law.

    2. brinpol Avatar
      brinpol

      Many Palestinians, many of them innocent, were massacred by the Lebanese as well, for no justifiable reason.

      1. Was that in retaliation for the killing of thousand of innocent Lebanese people?  Kidnapping young boys to use them for blood supply and later throw the dead bodies in the street corners?  Was that because one of them attempted to kidnap me, but the Christian taxi driver was smart and brave enough to pull out his gun and kick the mother … off the car?

  12.  Avatar
    Anonymous

    Palestinians Killed 40,000 Christians In Lebanon In 1976.Responsible for the massacre of Damour.
    They killed plenty of Shi’ites, Christians, and Sunnis in the south, completely savaged their houses.
    They were trying to use our country as the a replacement, they were liberating Palestinian flags in Beirut like it was Tel Aviv.
    When Israel came in 1982 they ran from the South like sissies to Beirut, caused Israel to savage Beirut killing 20,000 civilians.
    If that wasn’t enough they fought even more against Amal.
    The Lebanese were still decent enough to keep them in our country, what else do they do?They killed 221 Lebanese Soldiers (God Bless everyone of their souls) in Nahl-el Bared.

    What was this all for? Because the Lebanese opened their hearts out and sheltered the Palestinians. This is the way they have proven to show us respect and gratefulness for what we’ve done for them. Jordan kicked out thousands, i mean thousands of Palestinians during Black September and I cant really blame them. They should be grateful we didn’t do that to them. I have a little pity, but after Nahl-el Bared they are very lucky to still be in Lebanon and not kicked out back to Saudi Arabia or Jordan. As of now, they should wait until a Palestinian state is created and not start anymore problems, mabye then well show some respect back.They say you must show respect to get respect, the Lebanese are still waiting for that.

    1. Beiruti,
               I am not going to bore evryone by giving the same answer that I have already given to 316909 above. You are confusing the right of the Palestinian refugees as a group. the moral obligation of the Lebanese as a group and the fact that some Palestinians have abused and violated Lebanese law.

    2. brinpol Avatar
      brinpol

      Many Palestinians, many of them innocent, were massacred by the Lebanese as well, for no justifiable reason.

      1. Was that in retaliation for the killing of thousand of innocent Lebanese people?  Kidnapping young boys to use them for blood supply and later throw the dead bodies in the street corners?  Was that because one of them attempted to kidnap me, but the Christian taxi driver was smart and brave enough to pull out his gun and kick the mother … off the car?

  13. antar2011 Avatar
    antar2011

    i agree. there are many arab and persian politicians,especially, lebanese ones, that do exploit the palestinian cause…

    but what i do not understand is that why do the palestinians allow others to exploit them…they should really have a strong spokesperson/representative/ruler who does not sleep with the enemy for the cause and would be wise to be steadfast in taking the right and just course…perhaps then their cause would have a might brighter future.

  14. antar2011 Avatar
    antar2011

    i agree. there are many arab and persian politicians,especially, lebanese ones, that do exploit the palestinian cause…

    but what i do not understand is that why do the palestinians allow others to exploit them…they should really have a strong spokesperson/representative/ruler who does not sleep with the enemy for the cause and would be wise to be steadfast in taking the right and just course…perhaps then their cause would have a might brighter future.

  15.  Avatar
    Anonymous

    i agree. there are many arab and persian politicians,especially, lebanese ones, that do exploit the palestinian cause…

    but what i do not understand is that why do the palestinians allow others to exploit them…they should really have a strong spokesperson/representative/ruler who does not sleep with the enemy for the cause and would be wise to be steadfast in taking the right and just course…perhaps then their cause would have a might brighter future.

  16. In_a_Mosh Avatar
    In_a_Mosh

    I’m inclined to agree with 316909 and beiruti that the palestinians were responsible for many lebanese deaths, and even more suffering. I’ll never forget an incident when I was about 12 years old and we (my mum and dad, 2 brothers and sister) were stopped in south lebanon at a palestinian check point. they wanted to confescate all the fruits we had picked from our land as they claimed it was israeli fruit. when my dad refused to give them the fruit they fired at us (without harming anyone), until my dad agreed to give them all the fruits (figs, grapes and prickly pears). at that time I thought why are we the lebanese trying to help these people?

    these days I think a bit differently. I believe that people belong to the country they were born in, and as such, we should grant them citizeship and ensure they live within the law. if they don’t then they get punished like anyone else. but keeping them in camps as the case is now is counter productive, as the situation inside these camps is so poor that it is a breeding ground for all sorts of “isms” we’d rather not have in our society.

    1. Sebouh80 Avatar
      Sebouh80

      Nice article Mr.Karam,

      Yes Palestinians have been mistreated in Lebanon for all this time.
      Recently I have asked this same question to a number of my friends in Lebanon and they all unanimously replied in the same manner.
      The reasoning is that had the Lebanese government in the past and present allievated the social and economic conditions of the Palestinian people than according to their limited understanding of the situation this would inevitably pave the way for a permanent settlement of Palestinians in Lebanon and this would disrupt the delicate sectarian balance.

      Sadly speaking this absurd statement has become part of the national ideology in Lebanon. Personally, I think the Palestinian refugees in Lebanon have been victimized all along not only by  the Arabs, but also from their corrupt leaders like Arafat and later Abbas who later took over the leadership of PLO. They all manipulated the noble cause of their people for their own personnel gain.

      Finally, in response to some of the viewers I would like to highlight a small list of massacres that took place during the unfortunate days of Lebanese civil war.

      Karantina Massacre:  January 18, 1976   Beirut resulted in 1500 deaths
      Damour Massacre : January 20, 1976 Damour resuted in 584 deaths
      Tel al Zaatar Massacre: August 12, 1976 Beirut resulted in 1500-300 deaths and 4000 injured
      Sabra and Shatila Massacre: September 16,1982 West Beirut and resulted in 700 to 3500 deaths.

      These crimes were carried out by the right-wing factions in Lebanon and the Palestinian militant groups. This shows that all these groups who participated in these atrocities were not innocent regardless of their political motivations at that time.

       Therefore,from a humanitarian perspective and leaving politics aside Palestinian people deserve much better treatment then currrent status quo.

      1. libnan1 Avatar
        libnan1

        Don’t forget the Shouf massacre that took place by the Lebanese with the help of the Palestinians, resulted in 15000 -18000 pure Christians. Shouf victims, we will never forget you.

        1. brinpol Avatar
          brinpol

           That’s the most inflated number of deaths I have seen yet.

          1. sam_shaker Avatar
            sam_shaker

            It seems your ego is very highly inflated and you seems also to blame the Lebanese for starting the Civil war instead of Arafat the scumbag may he rot in hell. You seem to forget that the PLO used to say the Road to Israel is thru Jounieh.
            You seem to forget that PLO massacred many innocent Christians in Damour and the north and many areas in Lebanon.
            You seem to forget that Arafat and his gangs forgot about Palestine and tried to take over Lebanon when the army was only 13 thousands and it was very weak. you seem to forget that the Christians fought alone against the Invasions of the PLO. You seem to also forget that the Syrian Army also killed many Palestinians and Lebanese too. yes we had problems allright but it got fueled by the PLO. We had problems in 1800 between Christians and Druze but also it was fueled by Turkey who disarmed the christians and let the druze slaughter them.. every country has its own problem even Israel has problems between secular and religious and sometimes they seems bent on attacking each other. that doesn’t mean if someone from outside fueled the division you can blame the israelis, or the lebanese. I am not saying we’re innocent but when you’re weak and controlled by regional influence all options are on the table.

        2. brinpol Avatar
          brinpol

           That’s the most inflated number of deaths I have seen yet.

        3. kareemthehippy Avatar
          kareemthehippy

          Did you get the numbers and multiply them by 100 or something?
          This is the problem, condemn all massacres and not just one. Palestinian militias did some messed up shit, of course, but you think the other side were purely clean too? Sabra and Chatilla ring a bell?

      2. Ghassan Karam Avatar
        Ghassan Karam

        Sebouh,
                   At times the relationship between Palestinian factions and the Lebanese authorities and or factions have been bloody. And as you have pointed out the pain and the suffering has been born by both sides. As material as these issues are they do not change the logic of the argument in favour of the recognition of the rights of those in camps. I understand and fully agree with those who are concerned that Lebanon needs to establish its authorities on the camps and then demolish them according to a time schedule. No one is suggesting that these things can be achieved instantaneously but we have to deal with this problem since neglecting it will only make it worse.
             What many are also missing, Sebouh, is the fact that the lucky Palestinians who did not have to live in the camps and who were given Lebanese nationality were not involved in any of these bloody events. Actually many were Bankers, businesspeople and responsible professionals in all walks of life. They have contributed significantly to the development of Lebanon. We would have been much better off had we dissolved these camps say in 1950.

  17. In_a_Mosh Avatar
    In_a_Mosh

    I’m inclined to agree with 316909 and beiruti that the palestinians were responsible for many lebanese deaths, and even more suffering. I’ll never forget an incident when I was about 12 years old and we (my mum and dad, 2 brothers and sister) were stopped in south lebanon at a palestinian check point. they wanted to confescate all the fruits we had picked from our land as they claimed it was israeli fruit. when my dad refused to give them the fruit they fired at us (without harming anyone), until my dad agreed to give them all the fruits (figs, grapes and prickly pears). at that time I thought why are we the lebanese trying to help these people?

    these days I think a bit differently. I believe that people belong to the country they were born in, and as such, we should grant them citizeship and ensure they live within the law. if they don’t then they get punished like anyone else. but keeping them in camps as the case is now is counter productive, as the situation inside these camps is so poor that it is a breeding ground for all sorts of “isms” we’d rather not have in our society.

  18.  Avatar
    Anonymous

    I’m inclined to agree with 316909 and beiruti that the palestinians were responsible for many lebanese deaths, and even more suffering. I’ll never forget an incident when I was about 12 years old and we (my mum and dad, 2 brothers and sister) were stopped in south lebanon at a palestinian check point. they wanted to confescate all the fruits we had picked from our land as they claimed it was israeli fruit. when my dad refused to give them the fruit they fired at us (without harming anyone), until my dad agreed to give them all the fruits (figs, grapes and prickly pears). at that time I thought why are we the lebanese trying to help these people?

    these days I think a bit differently. I believe that people belong to the country they were born in, and as such, we should grant them citizeship and ensure they live within the law. if they don’t then they get punished like anyone else. but keeping them in camps as the case is now is counter productive, as the situation inside these camps is so poor that it is a breeding ground for all sorts of “isms” we’d rather not have in our society.

  19. Sebouh80 Avatar
    Sebouh80

    Nice article Mr.Karam,

    Yes Palestinians have been mistreated in Lebanon for all this time.
    Recently I have asked this same question to a number of my friends in Lebanon and they all unanimously replied in the same manner.
    The reasoning is that had the Lebanese government in the past and present allievated the social and economic conditions of the Palestinian people than according to their limited understanding of the situation this would inevitably pave the way for a permanent settlement of Palestinians in Lebanon and this would disrupt the delicate sectarian balance.

    Sadly speaking this absurd statement has become part of the national ideology in Lebanon. Personally, I think the Palestinian refugees in Lebanon have been victimized all along not only by  the Arabs, but also from their corrupt leaders like Arafat and later Abbas who later took over the leadership of PLO. They all manipulated the noble cause of their people for their own personnel gain.

    Finally, in response to some of the viewers I would like to highlight a small list of massacres that took place during the unfortunate days of Lebanese civil war.

    Karantina Massacre:  January 18, 1976   Beirut resulted in 1500 deaths
    Damour Massacre : January 20, 1976 Damour resuted in 584 deaths
    Tel al Zaatar Massacre: August 12, 1976 Beirut resulted in 1500-300 deaths and 4000 injured
    Sabra and Shatila Massacre: September 16,1982 West Beirut and resulted in 700 to 3500 deaths.

    These crimes were carried out by the right-wing factions in Lebanon and the Palestinian militant groups. This shows that all these groups who participated in these atrocities were not innocent regardless of their political motivations at that time.

     Therefore,from a humanitarian perspective and leaving politics aside Palestinian people deserve much better treatment then currrent status quo.

  20.  Avatar
    Anonymous

    Nice article Mr.Karam,

    Yes Palestinians have been mistreated in Lebanon for all this time.
    Recently I have asked this same question to a number of my friends in Lebanon and they all unanimously replied in the same manner.
    The reasoning is that had the Lebanese government in the past and present allievated the social and economic conditions of the Palestinian people than according to their limited understanding of the situation this would inevitably pave the way for a permanent settlement of Palestinians in Lebanon and this would disrupt the delicate sectarian balance.

    Sadly speaking this absurd statement has become part of the national ideology in Lebanon. Personally, I think the Palestinian refugees in Lebanon have been victimized all along not only by  the Arabs, but also from their corrupt leaders like Arafat and later Abbas who later took over the leadership of PLO. They all manipulated the noble cause of their people for their own personnel gain.

    Finally, in response to some of the viewers I would like to highlight a small list of massacres that took place during the unfortunate days of Lebanese civil war.

    Karantina Massacre:  January 18, 1976   Beirut resulted in 1500 deaths
    Damour Massacre : January 20, 1976 Damour resuted in 584 deaths
    Tel al Zaatar Massacre: August 12, 1976 Beirut resulted in 1500-300 deaths and 4000 injured
    Sabra and Shatila Massacre: September 16,1982 West Beirut and resulted in 700 to 3500 deaths.

    These crimes were carried out by the right-wing factions in Lebanon and the Palestinian militant groups. This shows that all these groups who participated in these atrocities were not innocent regardless of their political motivations at that time.

     Therefore,from a humanitarian perspective and leaving politics aside Palestinian people deserve much better treatment then currrent status quo.

    1.  Avatar
      Anonymous

      Don’t forget the Shouf massacre that took place by the Lebanese with the help of the Palestinians, resulted in 15000 -18000 pure Christians. Shouf victims, we will never forget you.

      1. brinpol Avatar
        brinpol

         That’s the most inflated number of deaths I have seen yet.

        1.  Avatar
          Anonymous

          It seems your ego is very highly inflated and you seems also to blame the Lebanese for starting the Civil war instead of Arafat the scumbag may he rot in hell. You seem to forget that the PLO used to say the Road to Israel is thru Jounieh.
          You seem to forget that PLO massacred many innocent Christians in Damour and the north and many areas in Lebanon.
          You seem to forget that Arafat and his gangs forgot about Palestine and tried to take over Lebanon when the army was only 13 thousands and it was very weak. you seem to forget that the Christians fought alone against the Invasions of the PLO. You seem to also forget that the Syrian Army also killed many Palestinians and Lebanese too. yes we had problems allright but it got fueled by the PLO. We had problems in 1800 between Christians and Druze but also it was fueled by Turkey who disarmed the christians and let the druze slaughter them.. every country has its own problem even Israel has problems between secular and religious and sometimes they seems bent on attacking each other. that doesn’t mean if someone from outside fueled the division you can blame the israelis, or the lebanese. I am not saying we’re innocent but when you’re weak and controlled by regional influence all options are on the table.

      2.  Avatar
        Anonymous

        Did you get the numbers and multiply them by 100 or something?
        This is the problem, condemn all massacres and not just one. Palestinian militias did some messed up shit, of course, but you think the other side were purely clean too? Sabra and Chatilla ring a bell?

    2. Sebouh,
                 At times the relationship between Palestinian factions and the Lebanese authorities and or factions have been bloody. And as you have pointed out the pain and the suffering has been born by both sides. As material as these issues are they do not change the logic of the argument in favour of the recognition of the rights of those in camps. I understand and fully agree with those who are concerned that Lebanon needs to establish its authorities on the camps and then demolish them according to a time schedule. No one is suggesting that these things can be achieved instantaneously but we have to deal with this problem since neglecting it will only make it worse.
           What many are also missing, Sebouh, is the fact that the lucky Palestinians who did not have to live in the camps and who were given Lebanese nationality were not involved in any of these bloody events. Actually many were Bankers, businesspeople and responsible professionals in all walks of life. They have contributed significantly to the development of Lebanon. We would have been much better off had we dissolved these camps say in 1950.

    3. Sebouh,
                 At times the relationship between Palestinian factions and the Lebanese authorities and or factions have been bloody. And as you have pointed out the pain and the suffering has been born by both sides. As material as these issues are they do not change the logic of the argument in favour of the recognition of the rights of those in camps. I understand and fully agree with those who are concerned that Lebanon needs to establish its authorities on the camps and then demolish them according to a time schedule. No one is suggesting that these things can be achieved instantaneously but we have to deal with this problem since neglecting it will only make it worse.
           What many are also missing, Sebouh, is the fact that the lucky Palestinians who did not have to live in the camps and who were given Lebanese nationality were not involved in any of these bloody events. Actually many were Bankers, businesspeople and responsible professionals in all walks of life. They have contributed significantly to the development of Lebanon. We would have been much better off had we dissolved these camps say in 1950.

  21. kareemthehippy Avatar
    kareemthehippy

    Great article Ghassan.  if anyone hates militias and war its me, but it’s not like all Germans need to be prosecuted because of the Nazis. The same applies to Shiite Muslims who don’t represent Hezbollah, Christians who don’t represent the Phalange, Israelis who don’t meddle with Palestinians, and Palestinians who aren’t trying to destabilize Lebanon..etc.

    Some of the comments are absoluetly pathetic in response to your article, by the way.  316909 has to remember that we welcomed in Armenians who were facing prosecution and genocide, and were a positive integration into Lebanon’s multicultural society. Why can’t the Palestinians?

    Actually, if 316909 was being treated like pure horse-crap, had no identity, no home, and dealing with racist and discriminatory laws, wouldn’t he want to seek salvation and life in a neighboring country?

    Put yourselves in their shoes, THEN decide what to say. 

    Beiruti, the peopel in Nahr-el Bared weren’t Palestinians. I mean the refugees were but Fath Al Islam aren’t a Palestinian group. Probably mostly Syrians, Saudis..etc.  I don’t believe in militias, but I speak for the people who just want to live a normal life because they can’t do so in their only country.  Some of them are qualified to do great things for Lebanon in various sectors.  Besides,  I see less of you complain about people from the Persian Gulf investing into Lebanon and building all these expensive buildings nobody can afford to live.

    Say, why don’t we complain some more about the “Khaleejis” helping businesses invest into huge malls at the expense of archaological sites and what not?

    It’s just stupid how we just see things black or white. It’s either pure good or pure bad. What a disgusting mentality us Lebanese have.

    On one final note, Jonathan Boyko, international law will prevail, and the Palestinians will have their justice and be able to live side by side with Israelis, without the war criminals on both sides. 

  22.  Avatar
    Anonymous

    Great article Ghassan.  if anyone hates militias and war its me, but it’s not like all Germans need to be prosecuted because of the Nazis. The same applies to Shiite Muslims who don’t represent Hezbollah, Christians who don’t represent the Phalange, Israelis who don’t meddle with Palestinians, and Palestinians who aren’t trying to destabilize Lebanon..etc.

    Some of the comments are absoluetly pathetic in response to your article, by the way.  316909 has to remember that we welcomed in Armenians who were facing prosecution and genocide, and were a positive integration into Lebanon’s multicultural society. Why can’t the Palestinians?

    Actually, if 316909 was being treated like pure horse-crap, had no identity, no home, and dealing with racist and discriminatory laws, wouldn’t he want to seek salvation and life in a neighboring country?

    Put yourselves in their shoes, THEN decide what to say. 

    Beiruti, the peopel in Nahr-el Bared weren’t Palestinians. I mean the refugees were but Fath Al Islam aren’t a Palestinian group. Probably mostly Syrians, Saudis..etc.  I don’t believe in militias, but I speak for the people who just want to live a normal life because they can’t do so in their only country.  Some of them are qualified to do great things for Lebanon in various sectors.  Besides,  I see less of you complain about people from the Persian Gulf investing into Lebanon and building all these expensive buildings nobody can afford to live.

    Say, why don’t we complain some more about the “Khaleejis” helping businesses invest into huge malls at the expense of archaological sites and what not?

    It’s just stupid how we just see things black or white. It’s either pure good or pure bad. What a disgusting mentality us Lebanese have.

    On one final note, Jonathan Boyko, international law will prevail, and the Palestinians will have their justice and be able to live side by side with Israelis, without the war criminals on both sides. 

  23. Adam Yonatan Ben Yoel Avatar
    Adam Yonatan Ben Yoel

    Essentially, several things must happen. The Hashimites must relinquish power or become constitutional. Gaza must become an exclave of Jordan. The West Bank must be divided between Israel and Jordan with those in their respective sides getting full rights and the refugees must be absorbed by Jordan.

  24. Essentially, several things must happen. The Hashimites must relinquish power or become constitutional. Gaza must become an exclave of Jordan. The West Bank must be divided between Israel and Jordan with those in their respective sides getting full rights and the refugees must be absorbed by Jordan.

  25. Essentially, several things must happen. The Hashimites must relinquish power or become constitutional. Gaza must become an exclave of Jordan. The West Bank must be divided between Israel and Jordan with those in their respective sides getting full rights and the refugees must be absorbed by Jordan.

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